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February 18, 2012

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Copy-edit Question Edit

Usually, your copy-edits of my articles make sense and are welcome—with all the entries I've been editing, I make a lot of silly mistakes, (mistakes that are somewhat embarrassing at times.) So I admit I was confused by your edit of The Fine Gold Chain. I am not at all bothered by the edit—it's a wiki after all—but I don't understand what was wrong with any of things you changed. Or does the way you changed it just sound better to your ears? Again, this is just a question of curiosity. (I have noted that you like to change whenever I use the word "due".) ~ Lhynard (talk) 01:00, January 20, 2015 (UTC)

We all make mistakes; I certainly did when I touched up The Fine Gold Chain. It's also hard to follow a sentence around wiki code.
No worries about asking, I'm happy to explain, if I can. First, I'm a technical editor of scientific papers written by non-English-speakers, hence my focus here. I generally correct errors in grammar and style according to US English rules and roughly the Chicago Manual of Style, with adaptations to a wiki. But I limit the full range of possible edits here, to preserve a writer's voice, a fantasy style, and a conversational style.
Now, the specific points on the edit:
  • "The Fine Gold Chain was nearly impossible to miss to a visitor of Memnon" changed to "...for a visitor of Memnon". What did I do? I think it was editor's instinct. Let's rearrange the sentence to something equivalent: "To a visitor of Memnon, The Fine Gold Chain was nearly impossible to miss" or "For a visitor of Memnon, The Fine Gold Chain was nearly impossible to miss". Actually, both sound fine. The original "to a visitor" just sounded odd to me, I think because of the repeated use of "to". Let's correct "visitor of Memnon" (implying they are of, or come from Memnon) as "visitor to Memnon" (they come to Memnon). So "to miss to a visitor to Memnon" sounds very repetitious, while "to miss for a visitor to Memnon" is clearer.
  • "...due to its unique architecture." The grammatically correct usage of "due to" is tricky, and I'm not sure I understand it myself. I'll point to this grammar article. It boils down to "due to" being equivalent to "caused by" but not "because of". It's a common problem, one I only discovered last year, and I imagine most people who aren't editors and grammar nerds don't care. I could leave it, but changing it is a force of habit. "Due to"/"Caused by" didn't work, so I went for "owing to".
  • "The inner decorum". Here, "decorum" actually means social behaviour, propriety, good manners. So that would be how the customers and staff act, or perhaps the gargoyles. :) "Decor" means the style of decoration and furnishings (which I misspelled this morning after zero sleep). "Interior" seemed more appropriate, being specific to describing a building.
So, I hope that answers your questions. I'm happy to explain my copy-editing, but don't really have the opportunity to do so in a summary box. — BadCatMan (talk) 11:02, January 20, 2015 (UTC)
  • "Due to"/"owing to" — Ah, I see. That article's author was sloppy on his/her explanations, but it's a matter of the part of speech of "due" vs. "because"; the former is an adjective, while the latter is an adverb. In which case, "owing to" can get away with it, because as a participle, it can function as an adjective or adverb.
    I would argue, however, that this is all a little prescriptivist, as "due to" is a phrase that has taken on a role of a preposition in its own right, so it should be able to function in an adverbial sense as well.
    In any case, since the whole participial phrase functions as an adverb, it really should have a comma. :)
  • "Decorum"/"decor" — embarrassingly, I never knew this. Thanks for educating me! (I'm glad those gargoyles aren't alive now!)
~ Lhynard (talk) 21:21, January 20, 2015 (UTC)
Prescriptivist, yes, it is. But I don't expect anyone else to change how they use it, and I wouldn't edit an article solely to change it. It's just one of the things I correct along the way. (But, ugh, a comma? Something just looks funny about it.)
What I've been doing is to go through Special:NewPages, patrol a new page, click edit, read through, and check wiki code, style, spelling, and grammar. I want to ensure all new pages match the current house style while we update the old articles to that style. I like to think the FRW could be the only professionally edited wiki around. :)

Year tallyEdit

Just saw your year tally. You're going to hate me by the time I finish adding all the years that haven't yet been. Man, I wish I had more time online so I could finally finish that project :(. -hashtalk 12:31, February 10, 2015 (UTC)

Eh, I'm already well past any new years pages there will be. It just puts me in a version of Zeno's Paradox: the closer I get to the end, the slower I get. :)
So, anyway, I have 300 pages (1000 DR to 1299 DR) to check and rewrite the plagiarised entries from The Grand History of the Realms; not all will be filled, so it's effectively less than that. That was the main reason for doing this, since the copied pages made up a substantial proportion of the wiki. Then I have about 22 pages (1363 DR to 1385 DR of hefty recent history to copy-edit, tidy, and also check for plagiarised entries from tGHotR and a variety of other sources. They get longer and longer, so it's another Zeno's Paradox. Then, finally, the 100-odd pages from then until 4th or 5th edition, which will have a scattering of entries. Then straight on to the end of the Roll of Years, with a few future entries. Plus, I go over new or added-to pages as they come up.
I hope to finish by the end of the year, but I've been at it maybe two and a half years now. Whew. — BadCatMan (talk) 11:56, February 11, 2015 (UTC)


Hi, I could not fint the rename option. I'm used to MediaWiki on Wikipedia.--
David Latapie ( | @) 02:18, February 16, 2015 (UTC)

Wikia uses the same code, but the rename button varies depending on the skin. In Monobook, it's a tab up the top. In Oasis (the default), you click the arrow next to the edit button to bring up a list of options.
However, where are you getting information about Lopango? All I can see is a name on a map. The Maztica sourcebooks otherwise don't mention it. — BadCatMan (talk) 02:25, February 16, 2015 (UTC)

Copy-Edit Edit

Hay BadCatMan, Thanks for fixing my errors on the spells that I have made/added to! Just wondering if there are any pointers that I should think about so that you don't have to fix my mistakes? I don't want to feel like I'm throwing a work load on someone else :S! Terrorblades 's Far Realm logs dated 12:41, February 16, 2015 (UTC)

No worries. It's cleaning up after the anonymous users that takes up most of my time. Some of the edits I make to yours are just style and formatting and minor fixed. Other times I rephrase sentences to make the discussion more concise and to the point, or more natural-sounding.
I think the main problem I've noticed in your articles is the use of "would" or "would have". In this sense, it's a past tense of "will". That is, if Drizzt intends to kill Elminster, then we say in present tense "Drizzt will kill Elminster" and in past tense, we say "Drizzt would kill Elminster". If Drizzt was prevented for some reason, then we say "Drizzt would have killed Elminster". It's not incorrect, but it's not exactly complete – we know Drizzt intended to kill Elminster, but don't find out if he did or not. It works, technically, but it's a not a natural construction in English, and used only in certain situations. I find it's a common style problem among people who not native English speakers.
In most cases, the straightforward past tense will do fine: "Drizzt killed Elminster". It's simple to use, direct and clear.
For example, in your contagion article, you wrote "The old "contagion" spell would have infected a touched target...", which implies that the spell is designed to infect the target, but may not have ever done so, implying it's never been used or doesn't work as intended. I changed it to "Older versions of the contagion spell infected a touched target...", which is simpler and states clearly that the spell did exactly that.
I hope that helps. Let me know if you have any questions. — BadCatMan (talk) 13:43, February 17, 2015 (UTC)
Really interesting insights. The work of a copy-editor is often overlooked (especially when it is done well), so I'm always happy to see you tidying up after us. I know I often use the U.K. vernacular in my articles and it is a conscious effort to check it and change it. Are there any other mistakes or points that I should look out for in my articles too? The less work you have to do the better.--Eli the Tanner (talk) 18:34, February 17, 2015 (UTC)
Thank you, I'll try and keep all this in mind! I really appreciate it! Terrorblades 's Far Realm logs dated 22:49, February 17, 2015 (UTC)

After editing dry technical papers all day, it's nice to do the same with wizards and dragons at the end of the day. :) Mostly, I want to ensure that any new article showcased in Did You Know? is top-notch, as well as to ensure all new articles have good quality and meet our standards, to aid in cleaning up the wiki. It's the sheer volume of anonymous users creating half-done articles that I find most frustrating.

Eli: Yes, I've noticed the UK spellings. I'm Australian, but always work with US English, so outside work and wiki articles I have to make a point of using my native tongue. :) IIRC, you generally have the same minor errors I do: basic typos but nothing regular; sometimes a word is in lower case that should be upper case; and the occasional UK spelling.

Terrorblades: One other point is the indefinite article, "a". When used before a vowel sound, it becomes "an" (I think it's just because of flow in spoken English, switching from a vowel sound to another vowel sound is a bit stuttery). So, we say "a conjuration spell" and "an illusion spell", but not "a illusion" spell. Typically, "an" precedes words that begin with the vowel letters a, e, i, o, and u. However, this isn't always the case, as it depends on the pronunciation of the word. Sometimes, u is pronounced "yoo". For example, "an ugly orc" (ugly is pronounced ah-gly) but "a user" (user is pronounced yoo-ser).

Some of what I do is just for style, such as if I think something can be better explained or would sound better if written another way. Often, a major change is quicker than a minor one, i.e., simply rewriting something is easier than trying to find a small fix that maintains the phrasing of an original, tangled sentence. — BadCatMan (talk) 12:15, February 18, 2015 (UTC)

Hehe. Oh ok, I'll try and think of that, I think I did it in one of the new spells I edited or made, cant remember witch one it was! Hihih I'm a wiki yoo-ser! Terrorblades 's Far Realm logs dated 08:48, February 19, 2015 (UTC)

Game GuidesEdit

Not sure if you were aware but Wikia has a mobile app called Wikia Game Guides that is available on iOS and Android. In order for users to be able to find your wiki using the app, the Special:CuratedContent page needs to be filled in and preferably kept updated. I noticed yours was not and filled it in the best I could. Please take a look at it and make changes if needed. Make sure to save when you are done. Any categories that are duplicated or not correct will highlight in red. Pictures are generally picked up from the category page if there is one on it. If not, then you can add one manually by clicking on the gray box. The unused Featured Content does not have to be a category like the rest of the entries and can be a video, article page or image. If left blank, it simply doesn't appear. Thanks! Pinkachu@Wikia (talk) 01:04, March 3, 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll check this out later. I messed about with Wikia Game Guides when it came out (and I admit I couldn't really see the point of it for our wiki). This CuratedContent seems new.
I invite our regular editors to work on this. :) — BadCatMan (talk) 02:16, March 3, 2015 (UTC)
Only Admins have access to edit that page. Pinkachu@Wikia (talk) 18:55, March 3, 2015 (UTC)
Seems so, I tried having a go but couldn't get anywhere. Maybe Moviesign would be up for it, he often likes to tinker with that sort of thing.--Eli the Tanner (talk) 23:01, March 3, 2015 (UTC)
I messed with it a little bit, but not sure how the Wiki wants to organize it and I do not have an Android, so I am not really sure what it looks like or why I was adding categories... - Darkwynters (talk) 00:41, March 4, 2015 (UTC)

Quick questionEdit

Is it standard practice these days to use the DEFAULTSORT template to arrange individuals by surname in categories? Cheers. -hashtalk 12:11, March 24, 2015 (UTC)

Yes. — BadCatMan (talk) 13:12, March 24, 2015 (UTC)


FYI, you do not need to bother putting n-dashes in page ranges inside a Cite template. Dashes are automatically converted to n-dashes by the template. It won't hurt if you do, but it's an unnecessary step while editing. If you discover otherwise, please let me know. —Moviesign (talk) 15:18, April 7, 2015 (UTC)

Okay. I hadn't noticed the change. It used to be that hyphens came out as hyphens, IIRC. Alright, thanks. — BadCatMan (talk) 13:19, April 9, 2015 (UTC)
Hmm. Hyphens are still hyphens at Stoner's Needle, so I guess the {{Cite comic}} template doesn't convert them yet. — BadCatMan (talk) 14:51, April 9, 2015 (UTC)
On it! —Moviesign (talk) 16:51, April 9, 2015 (UTC)
Great, thanks! — BadCatMan (talk) 00:53, April 10, 2015 (UTC)

Drizzt pageEdit

On the Drizzt Do'Urden page, one of his aliases is spelled incorrectly and should be "Ragfluw" and not "Ragluw".

Ragfluw is Wulfgar spelled backwards. That inversion was part of the story. – User talk:

Thanks! I've fixed it. Don't be shy about making an edit yourself though. — BadCatMan (talk) 02:58, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Sort KeyEdit

Actually, when you removed the sort key from the Template:Class table in Thallos el Bhirax, his name ceased being sorted properly in Category:Fighters (2e). You need to have both the sort key param and the {{DEFAULTSORT:}} set, because the default setting in the class table is to use {{PAGENAME}}. ~ [[User:Lh ynard|Lhynard]] (talk) 23:16, April 20, 2015 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean, Lhyn... BadCat and I have been using the Defaultsort for years now... Thallos el Bhirax is under both "Fighters (2e)" and "Fighters of 7th Level (2e)... - Darkwynters (talk) 23:29, April 20, 2015 (UTC)
Hmmm, actually, this is really weird and both BadCat and Movie need to have a look at this... for example, Artus Cimber is under "A" for the auto class cats... and under "C" for all other cats... I think we need to have a look into this... I thought the Defaultsort... sorted everything... hmmm, nice catch, Lhyn - Darkwynters (talk) 23:38, April 20, 2015 (UTC)

Ilmatari question! Edit

Hay BadCatMan! I had a question to you regarding the Ilmatori priests! In a Campaign I'mm planing there are going to the factions fighting over the power of baldurs gate. There figthing under the guise of being bodyguard/mercenary factions, in the fights people rarely go for killing blows but the defeated are left behind knocked out on the street, so I planed on having a small church of Ilmater having its priests collecting the wounded and treating there wounds. To them this would be like a attempt to do good and also to convert some of the faction members. You seam like a leading expert in the ways of the ilmatori so I wanted to ask if they would do such a thing? Thanks! Terrorblades 's Far Realm logs dated 21:21, May 12, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that sounds exactly like something they'd do. "Help all who hurt" is one of their creeds, and they wouldn't deny healing to anyone. Plus, it's a matter of cleaning up strife that would negatively affect ordinary people. Some of the more militant Ilmatari would even be getting involved to break up fights if there's a risk of collateral damage to bystanders.
But then, my Ilmatari PC is a monk/drunken master of the Saint Dionysus, so my feelings may be skewed. :) — BadCatMan (talk) 02:02, May 13, 2015 (UTC)
Yes! thank you! Hmm militant ay? That might come in handy... Ah the Drunken monks ^^! Thank you allot for awnsering BadCatMan I really appreciate it! Terrorblades 's Far Realm logs dated 18:38, May 13, 2015 (UTC)
Well, not so much militant as proactive: adventurers, fighting clerics, monks, and especially paladins. That depends on what you want to do with them, and if you choose a specific order. — BadCatMan (talk) 06:36, May 14, 2015 (UTC)
Interesting, I'll have to do some reading then... I have a good faction lead by a crippled paladin of tyr (Still need to do some work on him and the faction). I figured that if that faction got in trouble followers of Tyr would appear to help but the Ilmatari could be even a better fit! All factions will have warriors or allies that will challenge the party if there close to being wiped out. The paladins faction (Need a good name: Truthsworn?) is going to build poor houses to help the needy so that would work out very well. Terrorblades 's Far Realm logs dated 13:28, May 14, 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't get a chance to respond sooner. "Truthsworn" suits the paladins of Tyr better, being about truth. Perhaps the Order of the Golden Cup would suit? — BadCatMan (talk) 09:09, May 23, 2015 (UTC)
Hmm then I guess I'll keep it, Well there not all paladins, just the leader. The rest are people who got inspired by the Paladin, He cant fight him self any more hes been permanently crippled. So he leads them and teaches them things so that they can be honest and fight back the Merc's that are in the city... But yeah "Truesworn" and then the slang name would be "true's" or "Sworn's"! Hmm that Order sounds interesting, yeah they would probably do very nice! Thanks! Terrorblades 's Far Realm logs dated 22:06, May 23, 2015 (UTC)


Just for information, you really want recheck MOST of my articles? (Unknown user 11 (talk) 07:40, May 23, 2015 (UTC))

I wanted to create the template and apply it to a lot of other articles, not just your own. I saw a lot of articles in a row from you with errors, and I remembered your Cloak & Dagger articles had some small errors too, so I felt it would be faster to tag all of your articles for later checking rather than go through and tag them individually. I will untag those I've already checked.
If you are ever unsure you have the meaning correct, then please feel free to place {{Factcheck}} at the top of the article so someone else can check it for you. — BadCatMan (talk) 09:06, May 23, 2015 (UTC)

Okay, next time I have doubt about one articles I use the template; I' m asking because I saw you signal also articles that I'm sure are correct (also because other Users help improve) like for example Eregul or Severin (Unknown user 11 (talk) 09:56, May 23, 2015 (UTC))

It was easier to have my bot do it as a whole batch and get tag some that were correct, rather than try to tag everything not checked. — BadCatMan (talk) 10:46, May 23, 2015 (UTC)

About Pharblex Spattergoo for what I know nobody know the exact date of the Tyranny of Dragons, in Candlekeep someone say 1489, but was conjectural. Sure in the source was said only that he was chief from before the start of the campaign (Unknown user 11 (talk) 07:34, May 25, 2015 (UTC))

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