Forgotten Realms Wiki


20,262 Edits since joining this wiki
February 18, 2012

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Revision UndoEdit

"Undo revision 279833 by Zhentar (talk) Please don't remove valid lore without good reason"

There was good reason. The source was from 1995 and Dungeon #170 lists the Castle as completely rebuilt. That section not only isnt up to date, its unnecessary for an overview section, especially since "Places of Interest" has its own section which I was in the process of adding to when my changes were removed. I will be removing it again in the future and moving its contents in a newly created Valjevo Castle page in a history section.

Calling a tavern owner "mysterious" and the tavern itself a "great place" is subjective and while it may be "lore" in a very loose sense, it is opinion and not fact. It was changed to "popular" to be more objective.

I have no intention of removing facts from the wiki as a whole, only to move them to more appropriate areas and with citations. Obviously subjective statements, however, I have no concern in preserving.

--Zhentar (talk) 07:37, January 4, 2016 (UTC)

It's not the wiki's goal to present only an up-to-date version or current situation. Rather, the wiki's goal is to present lore at all points in history, so it may be useful in all eras of play. That's a consequence of our Remove Wiki from Timeline policy. So, we maintain the existing lore as history, rather than remove it, and then add to it with fresh history. Erasure of content isn't the solution. Instead, write it in past tense, add a date for context, then add new lore. Move it to a better location, but don't delete unless it's patently wrong or unsourceable.
You also moved some information around unnecessarily. The Cracked Crown is "The city's most expensive inn." according to The Moonsea sourcebook, but if you move that outside the citation, it's no longer clear where that information came from.
Yes, the article is untidy and cluttered, and much of this lore should go on separate articles. But the lore shouldn't be deleted out of hand until it is.
Furthermore, subjectivity isn't a concern. This is a D&D setting after all, and the wiki should be useful as such. Opinions are a thing we report on. "Mysterious" is how people view the NPC. "A haven from the tumult of the city" is how NPCs view the inn. These are facts (if that is what the adventure module truly says) that the wiki should present.
As a new member, we have to pay extra attention to what you do to ensure that it maintains and improves the wiki along the lines of our policies. Too many come in, do something strange, and disappear. Your edit summary was contradictory. You said "Added notable locations" but that's not what happened. You said "Removed superfluous text", but I don't agree it was superfluous, only faulty and/or should be on a separate page. I don't know that you intend to create a Valjevo Castle article and develop Phlan (though it would be utterly fantastic if you do). Too many new editors come in with a grand project but don't follow through. So, I can't trust a new editor will remove something one day and maybe restore it the next.
It sounds like you're taking on a huge project here. I would not recommend it as your first project. Phlan's a big, oft-used place and this is a big and cluttered article to overhaul, and there'll be too much text to shift while you learn the ropes. Instead, I recommend you start on something small and self-contained, like an article for one of those taverns, and branch out from there. Ask us if you have any questions, and, finally, welcome to the wiki. — BadCatMan (talk) 12:31, January 4, 2016 (UTC)

Back in what seems forever ago, I overhauled the Zhentil Keep page and added the majority of the content that is there now. I took a break from D&D and FR for a while and am now interested in finishing what I started. To be fair, the Zhentil Keep page itself I left unfinished (the history section is meant to get its own page for a starter) and still needs a lot of work. You recommend not starting with Phlan, yet it is the starting point for a new campaign Im going to DM, so overhauling the page while I research serves me in the long run as well. Honestly, the whole Moonsea area is needing a dedicated archivist and Im a bit miffed at seeing all this fame and fortune going to the Sword Coast while the Moonsea crumbles and my favorite city remains a sad pile of rubble. Perhaps a well documented Moonsea will inspire further development from the powers that be...

Zhentar (talk) 22:59, January 4, 2016 (UTC)

Ah! I apologise, you're not a new member, you're a returning old member. I'm afraid 2009/2010 was way before my time here, and I've not seen your name around any histories. In that case, welcome back! Anyway, things have changed quite a lot around here since then.
I didn't mean not to do Phlan at all, more that it would be better to start on a smaller article, such as a tavern or NPC from Phlan, or Valjevo Castle itself. It's easier to manage, and gives you a place to put lore that's unnecessary in the main article. That starts clearing the main article for development.
BTW, you made 10 edits there today. I find an easier approach is to copy the text to a word document, do and undo all the changes I like, then paste it back and publish. It saves on undoing changes, and makes it easier for others to get a handle on what you're doing.
Phlan received a lot of attention in 5th-edition adventures recently, which User:Unknown user 11 created pages for the NPCs of. That's where Madam Freona's Tea Kettle came from.
Phlan was one of the first places I discovered in the Realms, through the Pool of Radiance novels, so I'm looking forward to exploring it more fully through this project of yours.

Ulthar IEdit

I made a mistake with the page name of two character, I create the page Ulthar but after I put inside all info about Urmas NPC, so I went to change Ulthar's page name with Urmas; after I tried to create a new Ulthar page but the system block me and said it's need an administrator to solve the matter. I create Ulthar I as page and need only to cancel the "I" from the page name thank and sorry for the mistake (Unknown user 11 (talk) 14:16, January 28, 2016 (UTC))

User 11, I fixed the page for you... there was already a Ulthar page... So I named that page the Darkhorn and fixed the stone giant page to Ulthar :) - Darkwynters (talk) 22:57, January 28, 2016 (UTC)

thank Unknown user 11 (talk) 23:25, January 28, 2016 (UTC)

Air in DidYouKnow? Edit

Hello! I have created the article air to replace the redirect this week. Might it be fitting and possible to include it in the Realmslore on the Main Page? (I also plan for fire and water in the forseeable future). Thanks for considering it. Daranios (talk) 13:08, January 31, 2016 (UTC)

Cool. Template:DidYouKnow/current should be unblocked, so see if you can add one of your own. Otherwise, I'll work on it when I get a chance. — BadCatMan (talk) 13:27, January 31, 2016 (UTC)
I checked and unfortunately it is blocked to me. So It would be nice if you could do it. Thanks a lot! Daranios (talk) 13:52, January 31, 2016 (UTC)
It's specifically marked as unblocked, but I guess the block on the Main Page cascades down to it. Okay, I'll do it next. — BadCatMan (talk) 13:53, January 31, 2016 (UTC)
Done. Let me know if you have something more interesting to say about it. :) — BadCatMan (talk) 14:01, January 31, 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, "cascading" option is what it says as reason for the protection. I like the air sentence :-). Daranios (talk) 19:04, January 31, 2016 (UTC)
And fire is done. Daranios (talk) 19:26, February 3, 2016 (UTC)
Alright, I'll note it for next week. — BadCatMan (talk) 10:46, February 4, 2016 (UTC)
Finished the round with water.:-) Daranios (talk) 12:20, February 13, 2016 (UTC)
Great! I'll add it to the list. — BadCatMan (talk) 12:28, February 13, 2016 (UTC)

Game screenshots Edit

Hey there, I noticed you deleted a screenshot of Cespenar from Baldur's Gate II. Are game screenshots a faux pas on this wiki? I was thinking of replacing a few of the low-quality infobox images from the BG series with crisp versions, but if such things are frowned upon I'll focus my efforts elsewhere. --Ir'revrykal (talk) 11:45, February 19, 2016 (UTC)

Oh no, screenshots are accepted, I've put up a few myself. I just felt it was a rather poor image: you could barely see the imp, even at full size, and I felt the image of the player's party, game interface, and conversation window were unnecessary. We generally prefer clear images that focus on their topics, and don't show unnecessary game information (no rules, interface, etc.) that lift the reader out of the wiki experience. We still have some wonky images around, so I'd like to see some improved images.
Have a look at Ilbratha, History of the Vast, and quiver of plenty for examples of how I've used BG screenshots. — BadCatMan (talk) 11:56, February 19, 2016 (UTC)
Noted. Thanks for the swift response. --Ir'revrykal (talk) 11:59, February 19, 2016 (UTC)

Indexes and appendicesEdit

I couldn't find an answer to this in your Manual of Style, so here goes. Should the wiki maintain indexes on games, such as Neverwinter? It could be useful, but could also get rather large and unnavigable (although, some sort of collapsible table could be employed). Furthermore, should the Appearances sections of appendices be broken up by media type? --Ir'revrykal (talk) 06:35, February 25, 2016 (UTC)

I haven't gotten up to this in the MoS yet, but I'm glad people are looking at it. :)
I'm in favour of indexing games, treating games like any other source and adding all that can be added (my wiki philosophy is inclusive and completist). As you say, size issues can be handled. The question is having an editor willing to do the work: it someone's willing, then all good; if no one is, I wouldn't call for it. The Neverwinter MMO is a different beast though, as it would be ever expanding with game updates. So, nice to have, but not a must-have.
Generally, I'm in favour of breaking up Appearances by media type: it helps to know which is a novel, which is a sourcebook, which is a non-canon game, etc. I like the following format, which avoids excessive section headings:
* ''[[The Fat Gnome Trilogy]]''
** ''[[Gnomeland]]''

* Campaign Setting Nth Edition
to give:
  • Campaign Setting Nth Edition
Not all pages do this, and it's a bit needless if there's only one or two entries. — BadCatMan (talk) 08:17, February 25, 2016 (UTC)
That clears up quite a bit. I'll begin a Neverwinter index—a slightly daunting task for one person, but my hope is that if people see there's a framework in place, they'll be more inclined to add to it. --Ir'revrykal (talk) 08:23, February 25, 2016 (UTC)
Alright, good luck! And thanks for getting involved! — BadCatMan (talk) 08:37, February 25, 2016 (UTC)

History of Spells and Monsters and Such Edit

So, I thought of starting a forum post on this, but since you are the one doing it, I figure I'll bring it up here first. In your awesome expansions of articles—which I quite enjoy reading—with information from the comics, you often throw some tidbits into History sections. For example, you note that such-and-such a spell was used by someone in the comics to do such-and-such.

To me, it seems like this would fall more under some kind of Notable Uses section, just like we have Notable Instances of Foo for other article types, such as races or classes. I feel that History should be reserved for the actual history of the spell, such as who invented it, its reputation through various time periods, ways it changed through all the "cataclysmic events that changed magic" (*cough*, editions, *cough*), etc.

Likewise, in, e.g., the Kenku article that includes details of specific kenkus doing their thing. I would expect the History section here to be about the history of the kenku race as a whole. The whole paragraph there, IMO, should simply be placed under the heading of Notable Kenkus, even though they are not singled out as individuals.

I hope my points make sense and are not to nit-picky.

~ Lhynard (talk) 21:58, March 16, 2016 (UTC)

Not at all. I was dissatisfied with some of my additions, but didn't think of "Notable Xs". I've been adding stuff mostly for the sake of adding content (context for images, and such) and completism, but only cases I felt were particular significant or interesting (e.g., a clever use of pyrotechnics on the fire elemental, but not a mundane use of magic missile).
But I'm ambivalent on dividing the existing History sections. I feel a small History can include more minor appearances of the subject: these give context or historical significance that might otherwise be lacking. A history of the kenku race is currently lacking. OTOH, a lengthy history on, say, orcs in Faerun shouldn't include minor orc characters as would appear in a smaller article. In that case, historical context is already provided by the actual history. I'm not a fan of very short sections anyway.
So, I agree, but I would only divide if it gets long and unwieldy.
BTW, my ISP went out Australia-wide, so my internet access has been poor today and may continue to be crap for some time. — BadCatMan (talk) 12:13, March 17, 2016 (UTC)

Current Clack Edit

Are you looking for creative additions for what users are working on for the "Current Clack" weekly update? If so, how about: "Artemaz is visiting with the Dalai Lama, unraveling some of the mysteries of the Hidden Kingdom of Ra-Khati." – User:Artemaz

You're really forcing me to step up my game here. :) Okay, will do. — BadCatMan (talk) 04:33, April 17, 2016 (UTC)

Did you know: Southeast ZakharaEdit

Hi! It's nice that southeast Zakhara gets its mention in DidYouKnow, but to be completely accurate, the Steaming Isles and Sahu are in the Crowded Sea but not in southeast Zakhara, only bordering it. There are a number of islands there, but only the two large ones, Harab and Bariya, are named. Daranios (talk) 14:54, April 16, 2016 (UTC)

Aww, that's much less interesting. Okay, I'll try correct it. — BadCatMan (talk) 00:50, April 17, 2016 (UTC)


Many thanks for your patience and apologies for my lack of comouter skills. I didnt realise that the page was viewed by people, and saw it more of draft format rather than the finished product. Im gonna clean up the pages that you guys havnt already dealt with, and looking forward to expanding the website

I have to apologise again. I didnt fully undestand the fromat procedures which combined with ny thinking it wasnt posted for peolpe to view, at least until finished. My skill with computers isnt great so that was another factor. Give me a week or so and i'll clean up the work, particulary the ancestor mound page to which i'll add the relevant mounds of the tribes. – User:Snorogh

Thanks for getting back to us to talk it over. Okay, that's fine. If you want to make draft pages, consider putting them in your own user space, that is, pages branched off your user page as User:Snorogh. For example, User:Snorogh/Draft or User:Snorogh/Zokan Thunderer. There, when they're ready, we can move them to the main article space.
So, we'll leave the others tagged as they are and you can work on cleaning up and expanding them. Have a look at other articles, particularly those we feature on the Main Page as Featured Articles, Realmslore, or in Current Clack, to see how they do things. You might also peruse our Help pages and Policies, and my incomplete Manual of Style. And if you have any questions, just ask one of us admins or regular editors. — BadCatMan (talk) 01:01, April 17, 2016 (UTC)
Oh, and when posting messages on these Talk pages, please end with four tildes, ~~~~, to make a signature, so it's clear who you are. — BadCatMan (talk) 01:02, April 17, 2016 (UTC)

Hi Edit

Hi, and thanks for the welcome. I happen to have the 4e manuals and some other manuals about dragons and their kin (my favorite creatures of D&D), and I want to help with what I can in those themes.

And yes, those edits... as you can see with the many "minor editions" my english isn't perfect yet, and it will be good idea that someone check the article later for grammar and stuff. (Zeromaru X 06:39, April 17, 2016 (UTC))

On canon and twitter Edit

I have been reading the Canon article, and it says anything that Ed says is canon until it's contradicted by something published in official materials, as those take precedence. Can we use a tweet from Ed as a source for something? --Zeromaru X 05:36, April 19, 2016 (UTC)

Personally, I wouldn't trust a tweet, but given our current rules, I can't say why not, as we've allowed for everything else. We've normally just taken his responses at the Candlekeep forum. As long as the tweet comes from the genuine Ed Greenwood, doesn't get deleted, and can be linked to using {{Cite web}}, it should be okay. — BadCatMan (talk) 05:51, April 19, 2016 (UTC)


Hey, I erroneously included the Mercenaries category on Grash Crackbacker's article. The Realmslore entry should be corrected as well. I would do it, but the page is protected. --Ir'revrykal (talk) 16:03, April 24, 2016 (UTC)

Done. — BadCatMan (talk) 16:13, April 24, 2016 (UTC)

Clan Article Titles Edit

Hello there! I wanted to rename (without redirect) a couple of sub-categories listed here and thus I was looking for the wiki's move proposal template which I didn't manage to find. So I am wondering which template would be appropriate to use instead.

Thanks! - Viktoria Landers (talk) 12:51, April 26, 2016 (UTC)

Hello, and welcome aboard. There's a couple of points. First, I don't think we have a move proposal template. Second, users may rename pages if it's justified, but only admins can move a page without leaving a redirect. If a redirect is left behind but should be deleted, then you can place a {{Deletion}} tag on it.
But finally, categories cannot be renamed anyway, as they're formed by the pages with Category links on them. So, you would need to go to each page in the category, and update the categories to the new category. Then you make a new category page for the new category, and place a Deletion tag on the old, empty category. If you follow all that. :)
But how and why did you want to change the categories, and which ones did you want to change? — BadCatMan (talk) 13:10, April 26, 2016 (UTC)
Aha I see. Well, in the category I linked you before I want to rename the sub-categories Melairkyn and Dolvak Clan to Clan Melairkyn and Clan Dolvak respectively. The reason is for those categories to follow the established naming convention. Thanks again. - Viktoria Landers (talk) 19:06, April 26, 2016 (UTC)
Okay. Thanks for tackling that. We've discussed this issue before, for dwarf clans, drow houses, and noble families, but it didn't go anywhere as we weren't sure what the official names should be in each case. That is, is "Battlehammer", "Clan Battlehammer", or "the Battlehammer clan" the most correct name? Have you found something in the sourcebooks about this, or were you just making them consistent?
In any case, personally, I feel article titles should be only the name for the sake of simplicity. It's easier and more flexible to link to just "Battlehammer", so "Battlehammer", "Clan Battlehammer", and "the Battlehammer clan" are all possible without a lot of redirects. — BadCatMan (talk) 09:10, April 27, 2016 (UTC)
No I didn't find anything, my reasoning was the established convention set by the vast majority of pages and categories which use the "Clan Battlehammer" style of naming. Personally I don't feel strongly for either option so I would leave the decision to you guys. Viktoria Landers (talk) 21:48, April 27, 2016 (UTC)
I, for one appreciate, consistency, so having them all start with "Clan" is better, even if we eventually change them all to not have "Clan". BatCat, can we use a bot to convert all of the titles and categories in one fell swoop? ~ Lhynard (talk) 21:56, April 27, 2016 (UTC)
That's fine. We should have a proper forum discussion about it some day.
I can have the bot change categories (that is, category links on pages), but it can't rename pages. — BadCatMan (talk) 01:45, April 30, 2016 (UTC)

1E Characters Edit

I signaled an objection made from User:Artemaz about NPC from Swords of the Daimyo and my answer: – Unknown user 11

Don't forget to make all of these characters from Swords of the Daimyo with 1E classes and not 2E classes. 2E was not released until 1989 and Swords of the Daimyo was released in 1986. Artemaz (talk) 13:08, May 5, 2016 (UTC)

I had this doubt before starting but nobody minus you corrected me. Plus I saw that also Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms module was classified as 1th sourcebook but all the pages in the wiki had a 2th classes. I think when need a clarification about from User:BadCatMan or an other administrators(Unknown user 11 (talk) 13:14, May 5, 2016 (UTC))
I wait for a clarification foe the eventual change (Unknown user 11 (talk) 13:23, May 5, 2016 (UTC))
I know next to nothing about 1st edition and 2nd edition and the divide, so I'm not the one to ask. When I made my articles, I assumed Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms is 2e, as it's labeled "Advanced Dungeons & Dragons", but that's only a guess on my part. — BadCatMan (talk) 13:34, May 5, 2016 (UTC)

If until now we all used 2th I was for continue this way (Unknown user 11 (talk) 14:04, May 5, 2016 (UTC))

Why change Roben to 1th?? from the forum talks with User:Hashimashadoo I understood was not necessary (Unknown user 11 (talk) 09:52, May 6, 2016 (UTC))

Plus I believed that change to 1th, a move not more need, some oriental pages will confuse people that read the wiki (Unknown user 11 (talk) 10:06, May 6, 2016 (UTC))

I think you might have misunderstood Hash's statement. I'll answer this at the forum thread. — BadCatMan (talk) 10:28, May 6, 2016 (UTC)

The only clear statement was that kara-tur sourcebook and adventures after Ronin Challenge were ALL 2th edition. Before Hash was no so clear. I understood that a change to 1th was unnecessary. Plus repeat I believe was confusing have samurai of BOTH 1th and 2th edition. (Unknown user 11 (talk) 10:39, May 6, 2016 (UTC)) Ok I not totally agree but my next PNC from Swords of the Daimyo I put in 1th, If you can use the your bot to change all my previously pages was better


Hi i've been looking into reworking the couple of entries i've made using the format for the site and i hate to say it but my computer skills aren't up to the job,which combined with time becoming an issue as work has picked up in the last couple of weeks, leaves me a bit short.

I dislike to leave things half finished and it may seem a bit of a cop out but i was kinda hoping that someone could maybe edit the work thats left, a piece on ancestral mounds and an enrty for Elrem the Wise.

I love the site, and will continue to browse through, the Realms allways was my favorite setting and i find the wealth of information brilliantSnorogh (talk) 20:55, May 5, 2016 (UTC)

Hi. Thanks for letting me know. I or someone else will go back and tidy up the pages later. — BadCatMan (talk) 01:40, May 6, 2016 (UTC)

the Way (Koryo) Edit

I noticed among the change to 1th that Korax (shukenja) was a follower of the Way, was the same Way of Enlightenment worshipped both in Kozakura and Shou Lung???

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